I'd like to raise an issue that is quite a common problem in Wikipedia, especially in articles on controversial historical events, but I don't find it mentioned anyway in these policy/guidelines pages. Suppose someone needs a citation for a claim, say "the butler did it", and they find this stated somewhere, but instead of citing the place where they found it, they copy the citation given by that source. Thus, we will find in the article a citation like
when in fact the editor just copied this citation from the book Butlers are Murderous Bastards.
In academia, citing like this is not allowed (and even regarded as serious misconduct in some fields). In Wikipedia, it creates several problems. One is that it becomes harder for someone to verify that the claim was published at all (few have the resources to examine old court records). Another is that it hides the quality of the trail that leads back from the Wikipedia article to the original source of the information. We are entitled to know that the only place the editor looked was in a highly polemical book.
I'm sure that usually this is done in all innocence, but it is also done on purpose to hide the use of propagandistic sources (especially that type of source that consists mostly of material carefully selected with little context from obscure places). I really think we should have a policy about it. The essential points would be:
I'm happy to write a draft section on this, but I'll wait for comments first. Also, is this the most appropriate page for it? --Zero 14:16, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm adding a draft section now, please critique the wording. I'm trying to keep it short and simple, as long sections tend to not be read. --Zero 09:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Often, particularly in articles on non-academic topics, vigorously citing sources inline for minor facts would tend to produce an unappetizing text, while footnotes are somewhat ridiculous. I've occasionally used an inline xml comment in the text for the purpose, like this: "<!-- SOURCE -->".
Advantages:
Questions:
LambiamTalk 02:05, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
There is currently a small problem with footnotes: until you click, you don't know whether it's supposed to give you additional information, or just a reference. That is, it's common to see footnotes that provide, in fact, notes, but also common to see footnotes that provide sources.
So, my proposal is that we eat stop using baby footnotes for references. Instead, we should use linked Harvard-style citations for references (Simetrical 2006), and use numbered footnotes for notes.[1] This would allow us more flexibility with less confusion, plus the Harvard style is more informative in that it tells the reader the year of publication right up front. And as an added bonus, Harvard-style references wouldn't be subject to the same confusion that occasionally arises over the same number being used multiple times, which I've seen people mistake for some kind of glitch when actually it's just the same reference being used twice. And scientific texts universally use Harvard references, for what that's worth.
If any kind of consensus emerges around this, of course, we can ask for the functionality to be implemented in cite.php; for now this is purely hypothetical, since <ref> is so much more convenient than templates. I also recognize that this is really kind of a solution looking for a problem, but what the heck, I may as well throw this out there. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:05, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that due to the nature of Wikipedia (being open to anyone, and subject to sneaky vandalism) we need to have vastly more references than most publications. A substantial number of articles properly have a footnote reference for every sentence (some times more than one). A superscript number is not that distracting. But a Harvard-style reference, done frequently, can be. Also, many readers don't care to know the names of the sources, and the Harvard-style ones are giving them information that's not meaninful to them. --Rob 05:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Should we then perhaps eliminate non-reference footnotes altogether? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 01:38, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
By the way, just found some *really* broken refernces on mathematical biology --- they look like footnotes but are external links to the papers! So you never see the actual reference, you just get a PDF to open! I put the citecheck tag on it, but maybe we really need a tag for incorrect citation style. --Jaibe 21:10, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Is it okay to use another encyclopedia as a source? I am thinking about making an list and I was wondering if citing the Canadian Encyclopedia and using it as a source is acceptable. !!!!
Personally, Harvard referencing without page numbers is fine for academic papers, which usually cite other academic papers. It was developed specifically for this purpose. It's relatively easy to find the sourced material when the paper cited is say twenty pages.
It's another thing entirely when one cites books. Imagine the pain we cause the reader, and other editors trying to check us, when we say something like "Some law codes revolve around punative measures." (Bible, KJV, (1611)). How on God's green earth is someone supposed to find and verify that?
In my opinion, we are very weasely when this guideline says "if you add pages it looks like this:". Frankly, we should say that we prefer page numbers for books at least. According to Harvard referencing practice: "When you can (or should) provide a page number, the convention is (Smith 2005: 73)". Most other style guides too consider that an integral part of a citation.
This has probably been hashed-out before, so sorry for re-opening an old, closed, discusion; but this has been an issue for me to check and correct articles I'm active on. MARussellPESE 15:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Is there a references/footnotes WikiProject? References and footnotes are very inconsistent across the Wiki and a group of people to get together and fix them would be very helpful. --Cyde Weys 01:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I observe that both general and in-line citations are listed under reference section in some articles. Is it an professional way to do?
Xplorer 23:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
In the present article, the "See also" section is located at the very bottom, below all the other appendix sections, but this is not the place it should have according to the example sequence in the GTL. Or is the standard(?) section sequence covered in another guideline/policy article (which overrides the GTL)? Or is this simply a (somewhat limited) choose-yourself thing? --Wernher 04:34, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
What does everyone feel about using Template:Unreferenced in articles without any reference? Shawnc 03:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The article in question is dnd (computer game). dnd is important because (1) it was the first computer game with a boss and (2) it was the 3rd dungeon crawl type game. There were four of us who wrote the game. How do we reference that we are putting up our own knowledge about the game? user talk:ratwod.
Have you ever noticed that inline citations that make use of superscript (such as the <ref> citation tag) can cause an entire line to be pushed down a few pixels, resulting in a sort of quirky mini-paragraph? I noticed this while working on Final Fantasy X. The following sentences are meant to serve as an example to illustrate this point. "It's not that I'm criticising the referencing style, it's their appearance in my browser that's a little off. Do you seriously not notice that lines that contain superscript get pushed down by a few pixels? If you can't, try shortening the width of your browser program." In conclusion, I still think that the inline citations should be kept as superscript, but is it possible to either move the superscripted text down a few pixels, or, make vertical line spacing a fixed amount? Thanks in advance, from Flooch 16:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering why references are put above exernal links? Most often there are very few or no references, and the section is small. But in other cases the reference section can be huge. Also, in many cases the references are NOT links - but are book references and are therefore not immdiately usable. I like to think that the most usable things in the article are at the top, and as one progresses lower, things get either more and more complicated and harder, or less and less useful (more trivial). The reference placement convention seems to go against my notion of the organization of an article.
I propose that we change this policy to putting the references at the bottom of a page - because it is the least usable part of that page. It is only used to verify information - not for much else. Fresheneesz 20:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: I always interpreted this guideline to mean "toward the end" of an article. Speaking as a reader who persistently checks the references of every statement, it's a lot of extra eyestrain to run my eyes through the broken fields of "See also" and "External links" sections in order to check the references. So placing "References" at the end of the main text but above the "See also" and "External links" is just less tiresome, ergonomically speaking. Jon Awbrey 21:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: I never know what to say to that kind of reasoning. Guidelines are made to serve people. If common sense provides a reason to vary them, then common sense rules. Many of us use the "See also" section as a synopsis or syllabus of related topics, and so they can be extensive. The criterion is: What helps the reader best in a given article? Jon Awbrey 21:38, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: References are the only thing that keeps WikiPseudonymomania from being a mere discussion list. Jon Awbrey 05:52, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi all. There is a proposal to put the font size for <references/> into CSS and not into article text (by using <div style=...>). Please respond on Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#proposed change to css (not here). Thanks! --Ligulem 08:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Would anybody else find it useful to have a reference bot that could do things like compare references to the same book in different articles to see if the ISBN/spelling of various fields/etc varies, and add info where deficient (e.g. if one article has a location defined for a book, but another doesn't, the bot can add the location). Would it be possible for a bot to take an ISBN and compare the data to another source and flag down possible problems on the talk page? Tuf-Kat 03:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
This page needs a huge overhaul. I'm going to tackle it soon. I'll probably end up rewriting a lot of it from scratch because this page suffers horribly from Wiki syndrome. It's dense, hard to understand, muddled, huge, intimidating, and completely unlikely to be read by the people who actually need to read it. My new version is just going to cover Cite.php and citation templates (such as {{cite book}}). It'll be nice and simple to understand. --Cyde Weys 21:33, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I created {{Category unsourced}}, to be used, when a category is applied to an article, its use is disputed, and there are no sources to back it up, and nothing in the article to explain its usage. {{fact}} can't be used, because there's no text to add it to. {{Not verified}} is to vague. So, I'ld like opinions if this is a good idea, and on what category such articles should be placed in. Currently I put them in Category:Articles with unsourced statements, but there's probably something better. I don't like "tag clutter", but I thought, in this case, its worth it. Its frustrating so many articles are in categories, with no apparent reason. --Rob 06:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
See the end of the first section of the second paragraph Seduction Community:
Is this proper style? What should be done in such a case? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 04:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
What about cases where the citations are legit? It may look more tidy to have one superscript, though this becomes more complicated in articles where sources are cited numerous times with the footnote system. Hyacinth 18:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
<ref>Source 1; Source 2.</ref>
I've spent several hours searching around the Wikipedia project namespace, Help namespace, and even Meta. I think this talk page is the best place to summarize the issues I've found; as usual, there are lots of different conversations going on around the wikisphere, so hopefully this will help to look at things from a higher level. I've listed several relevant topics at the end of this section in order to bring together their interrelated issues. I think my concerns fall into two main categories, but I think it makes sense to discuss them together:
I think Simetrical, Lulu, and others are making very good points about separating references from footnotes. Footnotes in general have come a long way in the past six months. I realize that footnotes are controversial, but I think some of the new templates and tools being developed to differentiate them from reference citations are usable. I think the Harvard referencing example shows the most logical way to set up "Notes" and "References" sections. It would probably make more sense to new users if the extension syntax used <footnotes> instead of <reference>, but it may be too late (or controversial) for that.
I've found three lists of "standard appendices" (Guide to writing... and Guide to layout, EDIT: third found in the Manual of Style). First of all, I'm pretty sure they're not standards since they're listed in "guidance" articles. Second, I agree with Gareth that several of the guides he mentions should be combined and/or reviewed for unnecessary redundancy. I would particularly like to clarify a standard order for these appendix sections. Seems to me like "Further reading" (use "References" instead) and "Quotations" (use Wikiquote template instead) are depreciated or unneccessary. (EDIT: On reading some comments and looking further into it, it looks like Biblio and Further have basically the same purpose. EDIT2: See appendices order Response.) I don't think it's necessary to have a "Navigation" section at the end, either. However, a "Notes" appendix section should probably be added to the list (see Footnotes above). How's this look?
I do not mind taking the reigns on some of these issues, although my time is quite limited. Just thought I'd see if others agreed/disagreed with my comments about appendices in general.
Yes, I know it's kind of ironic that I'm not using the <footnotes> hooks here; didn't seem to be the right thing to do on a Talk page rant.
--J. J. 21:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Just a note: Further reading should not be replaced with References. The Further reading section is for stuff that was not used as a reference, but has additional value for the reader who wants to know more. Tuf-Kat 21:59, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Have the pros and cons of Footnotes vs. Harvard references been discussed in more depth anywhere? While using Harvard references is good practice, Rob and Bob make good points that Wikipedia can be unusually heavy with its sources since it's user-edited; Harvard references would make the text much harder to read. On the other hand, I have never seen an article with so many references that Harvard citations would look distracting (even on the HIV and AIDS articles they mention). Make sense? Where do we go from here? --J. J. 14:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
In reference to the appendices and their order, let me know if you object to me merging some of the redundant information on two pages: User:RockOfVictory/Appendices order draft. Please respond at Wikipedia talk:Help Project#Guides to improving articles. --J. J. 18:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed a couple of discussions about appendix section ordering. While they're from Nov/Dec, I thought it would be good to add them to my master list of references. The Verifiability discussion doesn't seem to have ever come to a conclusion, so I'm going to assume that people agree with the changes I made last week. Furthermore, I'm adding a simple {{See also|Wikipedia:Guide to layout#Standard appendices}} to MoS:HEAD#Standard headings and ordering. --J. J. 18:00, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I hope this doesn't sound too nitpicky, but having read this article through (as well as "Verifiability" and "No Original Research") I'm still left with some question in my mind as to when citing sources isn't necessary. Besides mentioning that Wikipedians should feel free to provide sources for other people's edits, and that disputed text is especially likely to be deleted if not sourced, the only guideline that's suggested under "when to cite" is this: If you add any information to an article, particularly if it's contentious or likely to be challenged, you should supply a source. To me this is a confusing statement. Setting the "particularly" clause aside, since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, I would assume every sentence would "add information to an article", but obviously, citing every line is not a common practice. Even featured articles for the most part seem to conform to the standard of "only cite explictly when a statement is controversial, contrary to common belief, or likely to be considered original research". I'm curious. Is there another, perhaps contradictory, statement on the subject elsewhere, either in guidelines or policy? And more to the point: is there a guideline somewhere on how much citing is too much? Or is there any such thing? Lee Bailey 23:32, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
No full stop after name? Or just a mistake? Skinnyweed 21:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Why not? Pcb21 Pete 19:03, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Dedenting: That is part of it but it is more than that. I want to establish the principle that we can trust other Wikipedia articles. If we can't trust our own work we are doomed. And, as currently phrased, this policy page suggests we don't. Pcb21 Pete 10:14, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a worthwhile discussion at Template talk:Unreferenced, over whether the {{Unreferenced}} should may be used on stubs (or whether the stub itself suffices). --Rob 22:13, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Talk:Mnemonic#RfC:_How_should_WP:V.2C_WP:NOR.2C_and_WP:CITE_be_applied_to_unsourced_examples_of_first-letter_mnemonics.3F. The article contained about seventy-five unsourced examples of "first-letter mnemonics," probably representing a mix of well-known but uncited mnemonics, unpublished orally transmitted folk culture, and original creations. Should the WP:V, WP:CITE, and WP:NOR policies be interpreted as allowing such material, on the basis that it is self-verifying (i.e. anyone can see by inspection that the initial letters of "Kinky People Can Often Find Good Sex match those Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, and Species, and the source of the mnemonic is of no practical concern)? Dpbsmith (talk) 22:28, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Brought up by recent edits to Kerry Packer:
Is there a policy/convention/etc on the use of link abbreviation services in Wikipedia references? Various websites exist (snipurl.com, tinyurl.com, makeashorterlink.com) that will input a long and unwieldy link and output a much shorter one that then redirects to the original link. (Removed link to blacklisted site snipurl.com because editing this page is otherwise forbidden. Gerry Ashton 19:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC))
This is very handy when sharing links with friends, but I don't think it's appropriate for Wikipedia services. The URLs they offer are persistent, and some of those sites have been around for years. But it still adds another potential point of failure, and it obfuscates things; there's no way to tell where such links go without following them, which has obvious possibilities for stealthy vandalism etc. The referencing system already means we can offer readers a plain-English description instead of the URL, and I don't see concealing the true URL from editors as desirable, even if it is long and ugly.
(Apologies if this has already been covered; I looked but couldn't find anything on the subject.) --Calair 02:12, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick note to make you aware of this budding wikiproject. If you know of any existing projects with similar scope, are interested in participating or have any other suggestions, please drop us a note there!
Cheers,
Samsara (talk • contribs) 12:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I've just added to Finding a good source.... Does anyone object to adding a wiki link to this in an appropriate place here? --CTSWyneken 12:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
How long should uncited info be left on a page before it is removed? William conway bcc 19:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
When I was trying to find out what to do about plagiarism that I found on the United Nations Secretary-General page(Talk) I went to Wikipedia:Plagiarism and was redirected to this page, which has no information at all about plagiarism or what to do about it. This isn't a case of someone needing to cite a source, but rather that someone deliberately copied text directly from another web page on the same topic and pasted it here. As such, I believe there should be a page separate from this one describing plagiarism, how to spot it, what to do about it, and the consequences of it. Uniqueuponhim 11:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
So is nobody going to create a page for plagiarism?Uniqueuponhim 12:09, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there any move to standardise legal citations where the name of a case is the article name, i.e. Roe v Wade? Two things are particulary beginning to frustrate me:
I haven't been able to find anything which suggests move to standardise this, but if I have missed something, I'd be grateful to be pointed in the right direction. If there isn't such a move, should there be?
Legis 10:32, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
How do you cite unpublished sources, or does that count as "original research"?
Example: I'm wanting to write an article about Browning Hill in Indiana. Browning Hill is near Brown County State Park. The sources I'm finding, both on-line and in book form, seem to have contradictory information as to whether or not Browning Hill is actually in Brown County State Park or just private property near Brown County State Park. My intention is to call Brown County State Park on the telephone and ask so that I have reliable information for the article.
Is that "original research"? If not, how the heck do I cite a telephone call? ONUnicorn 14:27, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
What is the convention for citing verses from the Quran or the Bible? External link to (for example) Bible gateway? Or just leave it as unlinked text? ntennis 11:17, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there a correct way to cite an e-book? I've tried using cite web to include the URL & cite book to show the ISBN but am having problems combining both into one citation.
The ref is in the article on Stowey in the section on Sutton Court. A resident in the late 19th & 20th century wrote an autobiography which talks about his life there. The book is available via project Gutenburg as a e-book from http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/6567 but I've ended up with a citation which looks like:
St. Loe Strachey, John (1922). The Adventure of Living A Subjective Autobiography (1860-1922). ISBN 1404356568. Retrieved 2006-05-21. {{cite book}}: ISBN / Date incompatibility (help); Text "e-book" ignored (help)
{{cite book}}
Is there a better way? Rod 19:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Dr Zak, Thanks for your comment (although I don't want to disagree about the definition of e-book), my question was about which citation template to use. "cite web" includes the URL but not the IBN & "cite book" can't include the URL which may be useful to other readers. My solution is a hybrid of both & probably doesn't fit with style guides etc. Rod 07:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I imagine a lot of people come to this page to find the wikimedia syntax for standard citations, and this does not appear to be here.
In the article Ayyavazhi, many statements are made that lay out the fundamental beliefs not just of Ayyavazhi but also the Hindu (and Vedic) world-view, subscribed to by many hundreds of millions of people and taken as fact, without the need for citation. Someone has requested citations for each of these. It would be like asking for a citation to justify a statement that Jesus is the Son of God, and to provide a citation for each request would be unnecessarily laborious. That is, the act of citation would add little and would vastly elaborate the process of writing a Wikipedia article, in many cases. My question is: where is the boundary? For example, for someone who knows nothing about the Vedic view of the cycles of civilisation, mention of the Kali Yuga would mean nothing. But for the hundreds of millions of people who know what this mean, a citation would be completely unnecessary. In this specific example, I believe no citation is necessary. Maybe I've missed something or I haven't looked hard enough, but guidance would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Punanimal (talk • contribs)
Dodger 18:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
First, if something is truly widely known then it is not hard to find a someone, somewhere, who has said it in a publication and, unless the request for a citation is being made in obvious bad faith, the simple thing to do is to supply one instead of complaining about it.
Second, Wikipedia is now sufficiently mature that nobody should be relying on their memory when putting material into it. When you put something into Wikipedia, you know where you got it, and it is much, much less work to cite something at the time you're putting it in than to try to find it later.
Third, it is really amazing how many things that "don't need citations," when checked, turn out to need them. Some months ago someone took great exception for my asking for a citation for the statement "The New York Liberty, New York's professional women's basketball team, has the Statue of Liberty as their mascot and it appears prominently on their logo and team jersey"[1]. But it turned out that this is, in fact, incorrect; their mascot, is in fact a dog named "Maddie.".
Now, with respect to the sky being blue, this is something that (to a first approximation) everybody knows. The issue is not with the things everybody knows. The issue is usually with things "everybody who knows anything about the topic knows." If you review edit histories and talk pages, you will find that it is not at all rare to see two editors backing up very different statements by saying that "everybody who knows anything about the topic knows" something. I, the reader, may well be someone who does not know much about the topic
For example, editors of the Cheesesteak article suggest that everyone in Philadelphia know what is and is not in a real Philadelphia cheesesteak. The problem is... that they have said different things. What can one make of a statement in the article that "Philadelphia locals know that, if anything, Cheese Whiz is "the" cheesesteak cheese," contrasted with a statement on the Talk page from another self-claimed Philadelphian that "Maybe Whiz is the standard, but most of the people I know get provolone or white American?"
On the other hand, if someone provides a link to this Web page[2] I can read for myself a recipe from a famous cheesesteak restaurant that calls for "Cheese {we recommend Cheez Whiz®} American or Provolone works fine." And everybody can agree that, whether or not this statement is correct, this restaurant did make this statement publicly. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
|coauthors=
|author=
Ultimately it comes down to just one thing: what is Wikipedia for? Do we collaborate to produce something that is useful for the pooling and advancement of (human) knowledge? Or do we do it to satisfy some set of rules that have another intention? I would definitely prefer the former and, to my mind, that would mean a marginal preference for expedience and readibility, over fastidiousness. Another example springs to mind. Kateda is a martial art that I used to practice, but about which very little is written. Most people don't even know it exists, but it's an important and interesting story. If citation of every point was needed, then most of the article would probably be unacceptable and thus the opportunity to share the knowledge would be lost. Over time more knowledge about Kateda will appear on the web and thus citations will be added. I do in fact own the Kateda book, but citing it is presently largely futile, since it's basically an out-of-print rarity and nobody can check for themselves. I suppose I'll add citations in due course. But what I would hate to see is that Wikipedia becomes a forum for suppressing or ignoring emergent knowledge of things that definitely do exist, or for people suppressing things that they simply don't like to see in print. Punanimal 18:25, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
There is an interesting discussion above titled "When not to cite sources". However, as recognized by at least one contributor to that discussion, there is a gap between the idealistic principle of sourcing every statement to a reliable source and the actual practice "in the wild".
What follows is my observation based on two months of editing that included some articles that range from mildly controversial to highly controversial (Criticism of the Catholic Church,Global warming,Expulsion of Germans after World War II,History of the United States).
The basic theme of this posting is that the guideline describes an idealistic world that doesn't exist so we need a more realistic understanding of how Wikipedia editors actually behave and some meta-guidelines about how to apply the guidelines in WP:CITE in a civil and harmonious way.
I would guess that many editors write from their knowledge rather than with a source in front of them with which they are verifying their contributions. I do this. Yes, I know this violates the guidelines but, based on experience of the last two months, I doubt I am in the minority here.
Proof by contradiction: If every statement was sourced, there would be much less controversy than I have witnessed. Every controversial statement would be tagged with a citation which would, in many cases, be a defense against deletion. The ideal text would say: "There is controversy over this topic. Source A says X because of P. Source B says not X because of Q."
My perception is that, when a dispute arises, it is usually because one or more of the editors involved is more interested in putting forth their POV perception of the truth than on focusing on a verifiable presentation of the various POVs as documented in reliable sources.
I try to adopt a much more NPOV perspective that includes all POVs provided they are adequately sourced. However, the general approach I take to editing is that I write based on what I deem to be widely accepted knowledge and generally without sourcing it. Yes, it's lazy and yes, it violates the guideline but it is the most efficient way for me to contribute.
I figure if someone else believes it's worth providing a citation, they will. If someone wishes to challenge what I write, I will then go out to the web to find sources.
What annoys me no end is people who delete text, saying "unsourced". Yes, I know Jimbo says that's what people ought to do. However, if you really applied what Jimbo said, there's a good chance that much of Wikipedia would get deleted. Thus, focusing on one statement and saying "unsourced" is more a way of saying "unsourced and I don't believe it so I'm going to delete it".
Unless you backup every statement with a URL that points to a web copy of the relevant section of the reliable source, there is no easy way for a reader to verify the statement. Thus, it is possible for an editor to come along a unsourced statement (or even a sourced one) and say "unsourced statement, delete".
I have had this happen to me on one article (Criticism of the Catholic Church) where an editor who didn't believe what I wrote deleted the text and kept on deleting it after I provided sources challenging the validity of the sources. Eventually, he gave up but only after I had sourced every sentence with a citation. From my perspective, this is abusive use of the sourcing/citation guideline to harass people who disagree with something you wrote. It's easier to delete and demand citation than it is to provide the citation. It's far more civil to ask for sourcing and allow the unsourced statement to stand pending provision of citations. If the citation is not forthcoming within a day or two, then it seems more reasonable to delete it for lack of sourcing.
It's not that I object to providing citations. It's that the text in question stated something that was widely known but unknown to some (to wit, that some Protestants don't consider Catholics to be Christians). Picking on this one assertion as being "unsourced" and then deleting it was, in my opinion, an uncivil way of pushing a POV.
Another case (different article, same editor) involved the assertion that "conflict arose between English settlers and Native Americans due to the settlers increasing demands for land". This is a widely held belief and I'm sure I can source it but it's incredibly annoying to have the statement deleted and challenged for sources. If the editor in question had just slapped an "unsourced" tag on it, I would have been a lot less annoyed.
I've seen this kind of behavior in other articles where I was not party to the POV dispute. It seems to be a basic tool of edit-warring although deletion without even claiming lack of sources is also a common tool. I have advocated extensive citation of sources as a defense against this sort of attack. If the text has citations, I will help defend against deletion.
Thus, my recommended modus of operandi runs like this:
So, that's my rant for this morning. Thoughts?
--Richard 16:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
There's an article I want to add a lot of content to, Jacqueline_Pascarl-Gillespie, and I want to make sure the citiation/reference police are happy with what I add, as quite rightly they have been quite active there. I can't point to anything in a book or the Internet on what I wish to add, as I have been talking directly with the subject of the article, Ms. Pascarl-Gillespie herself. What is the policy on information gleaned verbally like that? Can I, and how do I, reference such material in the article? --Commking 04:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
WikiBib mentioned in the project page (in the section Citing sources) seems not to work anymore. Does anybody know whether this page has been moved somewhere? Thanks in advance. (I've already tried to ask at User Talk:Alterego and WikiBib at wikimedia.) --Kompik 06:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible to include references in templates? For example, consider Template:RRHF500. You'll see that there is a link to the external web-site, that should be included on each page that this template is included. (If this is wanted is another discussion, one for the talk page of the template, here I only ask about the technical details.) However, for example Surfin' USA uses this template. Look at the page to see a [1] next to the inserted template, but no reference list below. A better example is maybe God Only Knows. The template is included (currently below "Recognition and Influence"), and the number [10] is next to it. However, number [9] is below it. And in the sources list, there is no number 10.
Seems that references in templates are counted after the references in the original article, and they are not included in the articles references. Is there a solution for this problem? Or is there some guideline forbidding to include sources in templates? Pie.er 09:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Someone added MLA citation style to the list yesterday. I noticed while fixing what looked like just a typo. But this is a major change, and I don't see any discussion here?
(Sorry I'm not logged in; I'm in Nairobi using someone else's computer. 81.199.118.173 16:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC); Robert Ullmann 18:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
I just looked more closely at this bullet today. Unfortunately, the domain name qwikly.com does not currently exist in DNS; I would have liked to try it out. If this resource is mirrored elsewhere, it would be great to have it, but I took it out pending location of a live version (LotLE×talk):
Is anyone else bugged by the fact that articles citing books or journal articles rarely include page numbers (that's my experience anyway). It seems to me that such references are, practically speaking, unverifiable.--Chris 01:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Would I be able to use another article as a source for a claim in another? Pacific Coast Highway (blah • typa-typa) 13:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I grow kind of tired of people putting up citation needed at general (weasel word-ish) meanings, statements, and viewpoints. For example, the article on Mario states that "...most do not consider the animated series part of the Mario video game canon.".
Most people wouldn't have any difficulty accepting a statement like that, but it is marked with "citation needed"... how are you going to cite a source for things like that? --Ifrit 12:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that here it is suggested that citations be placed after the period, or when placed within a sentence after a clause, then after the comma. I assume this might be some sort of an Anglo-Saxon tradition, as in where I live it is more common to add citation marks and references before the punctuation marks. That way it is clear to which sentence is the reference referring to. My question is: is this some kind of a rule in English or is it yet another wiki-only convention? //Halibutt 07:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
In other words, outside of wikipedia it is in fact left up to the author to decide whether the footnote is a citation or not. In most cases I use a combination of both (either a {{cite}} template and a quote or a short note on the source). Or do I get something wrong? //Halibutt 00:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Please see here for discussion about two (possibly there are more?) templates indicating that the article is based on translation from non-English wikipedia and how they may be made more useful, especially in terms of citing reliable sources (reference as a translation from other wiki is poor but better then no reference, and the original texts have various levels of quality in their refs).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
One of the lists of missing articles calls for an article on "Hybrid coupler". I've found a U.S. Navy article, Power dividers and directional couplers, which is in the public domain, and which I intend to copy into Wikipedia. The Navy article covers hybrid couplers as a subset of directional couplers. I will edit it to change the markup from HTML to Wiki markup. What is the best way to cite the original source? Gerry Ashton 19:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
How about (see source for template): Avionics Department of the Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division. "POWER DIVIDERS AND DIRECTIONAL COUPLERS". ELECTRONIC WARFARE AND RADAR SYSTEMS ENGINEERING HANDBOOK (report number TS 92-78). Retrieved June 9, 2006.
I noticed that this page is silent on when sources need NO citation. Reading the article, one would get the idea that every other sentence may need a cite. As a newbie trying to figure out all these rules, it seems like I’ve seen screen-fulls of text without any sources being cited at all. I realize, of course, that it depends on the nature of the material and that it may not be so black & white. But it may be a nice thing to add a section on when it’s alright to not cite the source. At times, I have noticed that there are statements made which border on opinion. These probably don't get challenged because it's the POV of the readers of that particular article… Just thinking out loud here ;-) … So is it even possible to state in no uncertain terms when a cite is not needed. Maybe the question should be, Can you have to many cites? Thanks. Leon7 01:37, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
In the "Notes" section section, it says "==Notes or Footnotes==". Was it not intended for this to actually say "==Notes== or ==Footnotes==" (alternatively a seperate bullet point for "==Footnotes==")?
– Andreas Blixt ☺ 20:43, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
From the guideline:
"Footnotes are normally simply numbered numerically. Thus, determining who said what typically requires a reader to continually jump back and forth between the main body and the footnote/endnote to see if there is something of value. When footnotes are simply providing a much more detailed argument, this is often not a problem, but if the footnotes are the primary citation method, this can be critical (since it is sometimes important to keep track of who claims what)."
I know most Wikipedians don't use popups, but they are a great way to get around this problem. Also great with tabbed browsing, so you can check the source without navigating away from the main article. Should this option be mentioned in the guideline? Thanks, GChriss 20:36, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
IMO it is necessary to add a clarifying sentence, something along the lines
This would achieve four goals: coherence of citations (and the resulting ease of maintenance), prevention of unnecessarily long lists of citations, proviving a slightly broader context to the reader, and last but not least (which is actually the reason for this proposal) it would be a cheap way to kill possible trolling and system gaming by formally requesting quotations for each and every sentence one does not like (not to say about outright deletion as "unreferenced" in "strict" accordance with wikipedia policy)
Opinions, please. `'mikka (t) 18:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I have added Note that both the intermediate sources as well as the source citing that intermediate material, must be reliable sources in their own right to be used as such. to that section. This is needed to clarify to editors that this guideline cannot bypass WP:V. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
In my not so humble opinion, the "intermediary sources" business gets it totally wrong. What are the possible reasons, these intermediary sources come up?
Pjacobi 19:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I think this version goes too far. If the intermediate source is reliable, we can trust it to accurately quote otherwise unreliable source. For instance to summarize various partisan views. We do this all the time when we use a newspaper article which contains quotes from an interview - the person interviewed would not be a reliable source on his own. If you cite an intermediate source, the intermediate source needs to be reliable. If you check the primary source and cite it directly, then the primary source needs to be reliable.Gimmetrow 04:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Also see WT:RS#Convenience_Links.2C_definition Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 19:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
