Hello LordViD. Having worked on the Che Guevara article since its inception, I am very appreciative of all of the work you have put into it today to bring it up to FAC-candidacy level. The only modification that you made that troubles me is how you merged the section labelled "The Intellectual and Artistic" into the section "Youth". I do not think that this merger works at all because the article has been written in chronological order throughout, and the chronology is disrupted by the references in the "Youth" section to how he returned to playing chess in Cuba and the role his photographs played in the Bolivian guerrilla campaign. I do agree that the The Intellectual and Artistic" section as it existed prior to your merging it was a big problem for the article -- just last night I spent many minutes staring at it and wondering what could be done to either re-work or remove it because it seemed to me to be the weakest part of the article. Even if we were to add more content to it, which would not be too difficult, I think that it was, and would continue to be, out of place at the end of the article. The only possibility that I have been able to come up with is to leave the information about his beginning to play chess and his taking up photography in the "Youth" section but remove from that section the references to his playing chess in Cuba and the photographs in Bolivia. Those topics could either be mentioned in the "Cuba" and "Capture and Execution" sections respectively, or converted into Content Notes.
I look forward to hearing your ideas about this ... Polaris999 03:11, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Finally, what do you say about adding Image:Ergstimecover1960.jpg to the article. If so, where shall we place it? LordViD 13:49, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the late reply. As for the sentence troubling you, I'm going to take a shot at rewriting it. As for the Audio of pronounciation; that would be an excellent idea. Have you already found the sound byte? As for the Felix Rodriguez part; I ahve also done some research and found that he was not part of the invasion. I'm going to remove the part about him being a veteran of the invasion. LordViD 19:03, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As for the sound byte, I will ask Spangineer, If he can't then we will probably have to put up a request for it. Regarding the hyperlink; you were perfectly right in removing it. :) LordViD 18:42, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Great work on those changes you made! I've rewritten the sentence according your suggestions and I've asked Spangineer for the audio clip; I'm waiting for his reply. Thanks! LordViD 18:57, 1 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, this has grown into a very long discussion! Anyway, I have a few things to discuss with you regarding the article;
Other than that, the article is looking perfect! Thanks. LordViD 10:45, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Good luck on the timeline; I won't be of any help since my technical skills aren't really that great, so I wouldn't know how to make a pop-up.
There's a question I've been meaning to ask you for a long time; when are you going to add your vote to the FAC page? I assumed you would be the first to do so since you're the major contributor to this article. LordViD 21:08, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the compliments on the topics, though I need your help in expanding some entries and removing some. I forgot, for example, that the 26th of July Movement was a group of people, and not a political event. So I wanted to ask you some questions;
1) Are Carlos Fonseca, Luis Carlos Prestes and Colegio Cesar Chavez really that relevant to Guevara? 2)Should we I add Communism to the topics, or should I remove Marxism/Socialism, or should I leave everything as it is? 3)Do you know anything else I can add/remove?
As for the "Che the thinker", if you feel you would be able to make an article about the subject, then do so, and a brief summary could be added to the Che Guevara article, like the "Involvement" section. Thanks for adding your support! LordViD 15:03, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Polaris..extremely sorry for the (very) late reply. Firstly, thank you for your advice; I have revised the template according to your suggestions. Secondly, you're right about that sentence; feel free to convert it into a source note if you wish. LordViD 15:21, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Polaris, thank you for your advice. I don't feel comfortable adding the Sino-Soviet split, as I believe the events in the See also should be directly related to Guevara. I saw the picture of Guevara's birthplace, and I must say it's a very welcome addition and a great change from all those black and white photographs :-)
On a different note, something that has been bothering me with the article is the "Films and video games" section. Most of the video games listed are speculated to be references of Guevara, and I don't believe we need a list of every reference to Guevara in video games. I would like to omit this useless list. As for the films, my thought would be to move them to the support section, but that will break the tone and flow of the support section, so I would like to hear your thoughts on all this. Thanks. LordViD 14:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hello LordViD: The previous topic has gotten so long that I thought it was time to start a new one! Very glad to hear that you like the photo of the house and its placement. I agree with you re keeping the "See also" section for articles directly related to Che. About what to do with the videogames section, I have mixed feelings. If it were to disappear, I personally would not mind at all; however, while working on this article over the past many months, I have observed that there are several users who every so often come on and add new titles, details, etc. to that section. I have the feeling that it must mean something to them and would therefore be hesitant about removing it completely. Re the films, I don't think that they can be moved in toto into the Support section because it is my understanding that some of them are not supportive, and, in general, it just doesn't seem to be the right place for them. Do you think it might be possible to convert the entire "In Films and videogames" section into a separate "daughter" article and then include it in the "See also" section as you have done with "Involvement"? Polaris999 16:34, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hello again, LordViD -- I need to ask you about something else. Specifically, in the "Criticism" sub-section, there is a paragraph consisting of one sentence, to wit:
It is my understanding that one-sentence paragraphs are greatly deprecated by Wikipedia (and all other publishers with which I am familiar). I notice on the "Talk" page that someone raised the question as to whether the merchandising of anti-Che items should be considered a form of criticism. Anyway, my primary concern is the "orphan" paragraph and what to do about it ... Polaris999 23:18, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. If you have a chance, would you please take a look at the way the "Legacy" and "Criticism" sections are handled in John F. Kennedy to see if you think we might try to modify the CG article along similar lines? The "Legacy" section of Theodore Roosevelt is also interesting ... Polaris999 05:19, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Re the paragraph, I will have alook at it now and try to merge it.
As for the section organisation; are you suggesting that we merge "support" with "legacy" (with "popular culture" being a subsection), and move "criticsm" to its own section? That is fine by me and would probably improve the article. LordViD 21:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I fear this discussion will turn into a long one too! I have merged the orphan and restructured the sections per your suggestions. A few points come up now;
Thanks! :-) LordViD 22:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Polaris. Like you said, I was thinking of adding a pic of one of those anti-Che shirts from Che-Mart[1], but I don't know the legal status of such a picture.
Re the name change; I agree with you on the confusion thing, though I don't like "List of works". The best compromise here would be to call it as you suggested: "Che Guevara's published works", but for the sake of briefness, let's call it "Guevara's published works". Is that okay with you?
Re that unsourced sentence, I would prefer to have a sub-section on his philosophies regardless of that sentence's presence or not, for the sake of comprehensiveness and for the sake of satisfying some of the objectors to this article. However, that would only mean more work for you since you are the primary "author" of this article and probably the only one who knows enough to write abuot the subject. Thus the decision of removing it or keeping it is entirely up to you.
Another thing; an anon has removed your name change to the Early life section. I tend to support this decision, since "Family heritage and early life" is just too long, and the family heritage part is only one paragraph of the entire section and thus not important enough to include in the title. Also, a small edit war is occuring in which several users are adding the Category:Humanitarians to the article and several others removing it. What do you think? Thanks.LordViD 14:55, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi LordVid. That link on che-lives.com is very interesting. It seems that their basic motive, as explained in the abc.es article, is to seek to widen their appeal beyond their core group and that they think that wearing Che T-shirts will help them to do this. They either don't know about, or simply don't care about, the fact that he was totally opposed to all forms of fascism. This bizarre trend would seem to represent the latest, and most perverted, manifestation of the exploitation phenomenon. Polaris999 21:54, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. The "higher authority" I was thinking of seems to be the RfC process. But hopefully what you are going to write will obviate the need to go there ... Polaris999 21:57, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
P.P.S. Do you know Spanish so that you were able to read the abc.es? If not, I would be glad to do a Q&D translation for you ... Polaris999 22:06, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
More: I just came across the cover of Der Spiegel, #46 of 2005, presumably mid-November, which features Che and Gandhi on the cover and has as the caption: "The Inheritors of Gandhi and Guevara: Europe's Peaceful Revolutionaries". Maybe you could somehow merge this and the neo-nazi bit together explaining how his image is being utilized by (apparently) all sides in Germany. Here is a link to the image, in case you wish to use it: [3] Polaris999 00:05, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Polaris. An anon has removed that Neo-Nazi sentence, I'll re-add it shortly when I have the material ready. Thank you the pic, and also, I will need that translation as my spanish is very bad. Perhaps more improtantly, a user has added two "citation needed" tags at two different statements in the "criticism" section. LordViD 15:56, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad you like the reorg; hopefully there won't be a problem with the "cultural impact" section; sometimes people like to see prose rather than a list. In my opinion though it's fine as is. I also just added a few sentences to the lead about Guevara's early life; hopefully it provides useful context and helps address mav's objection. Feel free to play around with it. Oh, and I think I agree with you on citing Guevara's book; it's already in the references so it should be fine. Oh, one more thing—while I appreciate the compliment on my editing skills, you're the one who deserves praise for doing great work on this article and turning it into a strong FAC candidate. Nice job! --Spangineer (háblame) 19:46, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comment on my user page. It makes me feel a little better knowing someone actually cares. Moe ε 05:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for supporting my successful request for adminship. I'll try to put the admin tools to good and responsible use. If I do anything wrong you know where to find me. Raven4x4x 07:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'd probably be considered fluent in the language (some of my Spanish professors think so at least), but my accent is definitely distinguishable from that of a native speaker. Also, my accent is more along the lines of a Mexican, not an Argentinian. I've never done a sound recording for wikipedia before, so I'll have to figure out how to do that. All that said, I've got some free time over the next couple days (starting in about 8 hours), so I'll look into it and see if I can work something out. In any case, if I can't do it, I'll try to find someone on the Spanish wikipedia who can do it for us. Sound like a plan? --Spangineer (háblame) 19:21, 1 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I really appreciate the kind note you left on my talk during my absence. I think I'm coming to terms with the fact that I'm an addict, and nothing short of disaster will keep me away from here for long! :) I look forward to seeing you again in the quiet corners of the 'pedia where we run across each other. Since you provide at least as much reasoned wisdom as I do, I'm sure things have been running smoothly! Best wishes and thanks again, Xoloz 18:32, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh man! have you never heard suit about his fought against the diktator in Cuba, his fought against the poverty in south american and against the americans. Swedenman 14:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I hade said how he is a humanitarian. Swedenman 19:11, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! Any idea how to treat user:Swedenman? He is currently adding the category "humanitarians" arbitrarily. Mind you, Swedenman is identical with Filipman on Swedish wikipedia. So far he has been blocked 8 times for unreflecting edit wars and abuse of other users, see sv:block log. Probert 19:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hello LordVid -- Take a look: the CG article now has a full star. Again, many, many thanks for everything you have done to make this possible. (BTW I am working on the "Thinker" section and will post a draft somewhere when it is ready and let you know.) Polaris999 02:38, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
